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Glowstring vs Poi Discussion

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^agrees, breaking down it down string manips into smaller concepts would probably be the best way to demonstration the concepts in a tutorial.

 

also, dave posted a thread on requested tuts during the preEDC Meetup

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I think I was missunderstood. When I said that to say poi all looks the same means that glowsticking all looks the same wasn't sateting that they have major cross overs and glowsticking looks like poi. What I was trying to say was the poi has diversity, glowsticking has diversity. If you're going to limit one side and say that they all look similar, you're going to have to say that the other side also has no diversity and everone looks similar.

 

As for 'claiming moves' we have a perfect example of this just in this thread. It's a good reason why not to do this, and I'm not saying that it's wrong or right in any way I'm simply pointing it out.

 

"it's so hard to teach string manipulations because it's like forcing somebody to teach them your style.. string manipulations are mainly combos created by that user incorporated in their routine.. it's something that's hard to break down and recreated to fit the learner's style. "

 

This means that this move, this combo is his. He created it, it's his style, and if anyone else touches it they instantly are pointed as using KniveZ combo. If the person doesn't say this, doesn't thank KniveZ and continues to do this, after a few videos they get claimed as a biter and things go down hill from there. This is not just a Sting-E thing, this is a gs.c thing. How many times have you caught yourself looking at a non gs.c member and saying to yourself, "They got that move from Cleric, that one from Melvin, than one from. . . me?"

 

I say teach away. Teach the combos, teach what you consider yours, and teach it in a way that people can learn. If people coppy you, so what? Imitation is the highest form of flattery. Hopefully through the way that you teach you'll also teach that there are more paths than the one that you take, that people can innovate with the tools that you give them. Don't just teach the combo, teach all the parts and how they go together. If there are people out there that want to learn, teach what they want to learn.

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It seems to me that poi is a subset of glowstringing, at least insofar as the moves are concerned. Of course, there's the small fact that poi can be done with things that don't glow, which makes the artform an intersecting set with glowsticking rather than a real subset- i.e., one can be doing poi and glowstringing at the same time, but then one can go off and do some things glowstringing that are definitely not poi, or one can use non-glow equipment and not be doing glowstringing anymore. Glowstringing is something of a composite artform, that mixes together poi, and wraps, and string manipulations, and freehanding. Possibly some other things; figuring out what else you can add to this mash-up is part of pushing the art forward.

 

Regarding copying moves... with few exceptions, most of the time most of what you come up with is going to have already been thought of, or concurrently invented. This becomes less true as sequences get longer, but I figure for anything that can reasonably be considered a single move or a single combo, it makes absolutely no sense to assign ownership to just one person (whatever happened to doing it because you like it, not because you're concerned about getting notice?). Somebody will probably re-invent it at some point, and anybody who's copying it from a video is or from watching you on the dance floor is doing exactly the same thing whether they're copying a 5-beat weave or a wrap combo or a string manipulation.

When you've got people copying, say, 30-second sequences or whole routines, then I can see some basis for annoyance, but even so,it is not conceivable that they could be hurting anyone but themselves, so why worry about it? If they copy it to figure out how it works and then break it down and add all the bits to their own repertoire, that's exactly what we want, right? The more people know, the easier it is to invent something new, and copying is how people learn; not everybody can build up the entire art from scratch. But if they just blindly keep using the same copied sequences over and over, well, they're just hindering their own style.

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i don't give a shit when people copy my moves. i do give a shit if they tell people they invented it. i think that's a difference from saying everyone has to cite their sources. of course i'd like it if they said, hey i learned it from you that one time, like anyone else, but that's a far cry from saying everyone has to cite all their moves.

 

i think you can teach a lot of things in string manips without jacking an entire style. people being afraid of that is just a symptom of them being insecure about their own or about the entire field of glowstringing as a whole. and why not. everything is so new.

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I am late to the reviving of this thread, forgive me if I reply to "old" posts.

 

"Like I said before, even tutorials posted from GSC members often use poi instead of glowsticks. "

Said tutorials piss me off. They ARE poi tutorials. The solid definition we've gone by, traditionally, is simply by the tool you're using.

 

I think people don't know how to ask about glowstringing because it's more complicated/less defined than poi moves (once you start hybridizing and off planing and etc. etc. it gets complicated too).

 

Glowstringing's move set is way different than poi's set, both are incorporated into each other to some degree. But poi is easy and thus it gets used a lot (I'll admit that I use it to set up my combos about half the time or to take a break from stuff).

 

I think people who accuse other people of biting are lame. Especially when they're wrong. That's about all I have to say about that because it happened with my last video and it annoyed me a lot. There are a lot of moves that are used by a lot of people and thus get spread around. There are also a lot of things that a bunch of people come upon independently that someone did in some obscure video a while ago.

 

" How many times have you caught yourself looking at a non gs.c member and saying to yourself, "They got that move from Cleric, that one from Melvin, than one from. . . me?" "

 

Pretty damn often. I have no problem with it if they make it their own, but straight copies are lame when the person also comes up to you and tries to show off/"teach you" with it (different than sessioning). We have a lot of people who learn exclusively on y/t here or learn from people who learn exclusively off y/t so there's a lot of people who start identifying moves with people. Such as UTA BTB crosser is now "Milky's move" according to some folks... it's pretty dumb. Cleric's "stick pull" manip has been used, exactly copied, by just about every glowstringer in the area.

 

The thing about straight copying manips is that, honestly, you really ARE copying someone's style. It's cool when you incorporate concepts from some people, but not when you straight copy a sequence of moves. Like I'll be working on some manips or combos (which I don't do often) and come up with something, and realize that one of the few people that I watch consistently for inspiration already did it or something similar. But then it's something I made my own, even though I probably got the idea from Brian or Andrew or someone.

 

 

Kesian really touched on what Brian and I have been talking about for a while and what I have just been saying. You should focus on teaching concepts so that people can put them together on their own. If I was better at manips, I might do that myself, we'll see how much practicing I do this summer between work/school/working out etc.

 

 

Sorry if this was a little wordy or repetitive, I was replying to posts as I read thru the recent developments.

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i guess what i'm saying is.. you give people moves like the stomache trace, the helicopter 8, etc and then people will add to it. so the baseline complex moves haven't been put into tutorial format yet. that's what i'm saying.

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yeah, that's what I'll be trying to focus on filming at the PreEDC Meetup.

although, anyone can help contribute *looks at melvenorc12*

 

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CLIFF NOTES VERSION: People are lazy. There aren't many intermediate and advanced glowstringing tutorials so the few people willing to put in the work are the ones pushing the art. Everyone else is waiting on you guys to release tutorials and spoon feed the world on how to glowstring like a pro.

 

 

it's sad but true. even i, as a beginner can recognize that. although i'm running through every tutorial i can find, i feel like i'm also putting forth the effort to figure things out for myself, which i'm sure that the masses won't. unfortunately, most of the tutorials that i've seen are from playpoi, or from people on the site using sock poi, but that can't really be helped. when i start to get better, and get more into manips and catches, then of course i'm going to be watching stringers using glowsticks and not poi, and that will make it alot harder to learn since the speed and weight are vastly different- hence the problem; people are lazy and want to be spoon fed. :frown:

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But there are some people who simply can't either a) actually learn from such a fast paced tutorial or B ) have some kind of obstacle that prevents them from poring over the tutorial vid, extracting it from youtube, slowing it down, etc...

 

This is why I suggested 'spoon-feeding' basic manipulation concepts. The linkcatch for instance, nobody complains about that being over used or copied, it's one of those things that you learn when you glowstring. I think there should at least be a couple of other basic tangles that have tutorials, especially the kinds that are easy to get out of and have a lot of room to be expanded upon.

 

That way, you are still 'spoon-feeding', however the ones who actually take the time and effort to thoroughly learn the moves will have visibly more complex manipulations than those who watched the tutorial and copied each concept.

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I don't see how you can call an anti spin flower using glow strings as poi.

 

The logic completely eludes me to how you could deduct that. Manipulations are really a matter of style so I don't see why we should label it as better than everything else and a must for advancing glow stringing. I'm into seeing what glow stringers can do by combining dance aspects of it, to what alot of people apparently call poi, even though its using glow strings!

 

Please don't limit yourself like that, but I can see how people are so religious about it, just in order to differentiate further and further from poi. I like seeing that too, but it doesn't make glow stringing MORE different than poi than has already been presented. Thats already been affirmed, we need to see what glow stringers can do in every direction with glow sticks.

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I'm into seeing what glow stringers can do by combining dance aspects of it, to what alot of people apparently call poi, even though its using glow strings!

 

That's why I've always wanted us to not call moves like weaves, butterflies, ect poi moves. I wanted to just call them like swing moves or something.

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Don't y'all think that it might be a better idea to put the divide between the two arts not by WHAT moves are being used, but rather HOW moves are being used? Let me elaborate...

The wall plane antispin flower (three petals and a longarm back to the starting point). Looks good with poi, looks good with glowsticks.

HOWEVER, a good poi spinner would probably combo from that move into various hybrid flowers, and add some turning. A glowstringer would more likely transition into some duo-wraps or string manipulations.

To give another example, waistwraps - a poi spinner would probably do one on each side, and then either spin out of it or go for the isolated version. A glowstringer would transition into a waistwrap with lots of leg wraps.

 

To isolate stylistically ambiguous moves and be overly concerned with which art form has a greater claim to them seems silly at best. Obviously string manipulations with poi a) look lame or B) are dangerous and painful when on fire. Likewise, complex stall sequences (with sticatto plane changes), introversions, inversions, and isolations look sub-par when done with glowsticks (since the string is hard to see, and the glowsticks have a less-than-ideal shape for these moves).

 

As a result, it is easy to differentiate an excellent glowstringer from an excellent poi spinner. However, singling out and referring to all but the most obviously genre specific techniques as one or the other seems unproductive at best. One can perform any moves from one art with the other art's tools (for example glowstringing with poi - and yes the lack of a handle doesn't matter since you can just grab the ball). However, the only way to really differentiate the two is by deciding which moves LOOK BETTER with which toy. And that is an *aesthetic opinion*, not an argument of fact.

 

I believe that this is the reason this discussion has been going on for so long, and why it never really gets resolved.

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Although this is an old thread, I saw it up and had to post something.

I don't want to get into the differences of the two arts and what makes what what! It's a neverending argument and it's always gonna be that way. Too bad, though.

If people don't want to get into this argument/debate in the first place, why is there even a "The Others" forum?

I mean I know poi used to be included in the Stringing section, but was moved. But why is it there if this is "glowsticking".com?

I'm not saying it should be removed. In fact, I would be very sad if it was.

What I really want to say is why can't we just accept the fact that glowstringing is glowstringing and poi is poi and it's never gonna change. They're always gonna be different.

To me this is like arguing over evolution vs. intelligent design. It's an ongoing argument that's never gonna stop, so why not put it to rest?

We can use moves from one culture or the other, but it's not gonna change what you're doing. If you have chains or socks, it's poi. If you have glowsticks, it's glowsticking.

That's all I have to say about that.

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Although this is an old thread, I saw it up and had to post something.

I don't want to get into the differences of the two arts and what makes what what! It's a neverending argument and it's always gonna be that way. Too bad, though.

If people don't want to get into this argument/debate in the first place, why is there even a "The Others" forum?

I mean I know poi used to be included in the Stringing section, but was moved. But why is it there if this is "glowsticking".com?

I'm not saying it should be removed. In fact, I would be very sad if it was.

What I really want to say is why can't we just accept the fact that glowstringing is glowstringing and poi is poi and it's never gonna change. They're always gonna be different.

To me this is like arguing over evolution vs. intelligent design. It's an ongoing argument that's never gonna stop, so why not put it to rest?

We can use moves from one culture or the other, but it's not gonna change what you're doing. If you have chains or socks, it's poi. If you have glowsticks, it's glowsticking.

That's all I have to say about that.

 

We keep it because people would go ape shit XD.

 

We have The Others becuase we don't want EVERYTHING to be about glowsticking, but we don't want to focus on any one other specific thing because then it gets to the point where it's just as big as the main focus. On GXG they created a poi forum, and like 80% of the stuff you see now from that site is just poi, which is why we took it off.

 

I totally agree about the argument would go on forever.... but so many arguments like this, just comparison arguments, can go on foreeeeeeever.

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Ok finally got to reading the whole topic on HoP, my homesite haha, and now going to put my little completely NONcontroversial 2 cents in.

 

You are who you classify yourself as. If you see yourself as a poist who glowstrings, or a glowstringer who does poi. OR a poi purist using little to no wraps or a glowstring purist using little or nothing but wraps and manips. Whatever floats your boat.

 

We are all joined together on one love, creating dazzling visual effects for those who are watching, enhanced movement control, expressing ourselves, and lets not forget the most important factor of it all FUN! Glowstringing, glowsticking, poi, all object manipulation arts are about fun. We all got into it because we wanted to. It looked fun to do, it "wows" an audience, etc, etc, etc.

 

Sure there are people out there who will continue this dispute, but ya know what? Let that be their problem. We will continue to enjoy doing what we love. Isn't that what the art is?

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Ok finally got to reading the whole topic on HoP, my homesite haha, and now going to put my little completely NONcontroversial 2 cents in.

 

You are who you classify yourself as. If you see yourself as a poist who glowstrings, or a glowstringer who does poi. OR a poi purist using little to no wraps or a glowstring purist using little or nothing but wraps and manips. Whatever floats your boat.

 

We are all joined together on one love, creating dazzling visual effects for those who are watching, enhanced movement control, expressing ourselves, and lets not forget the most important factor of it all FUN! Glowstringing, glowsticking, poi, all object manipulation arts are about fun. We all got into it because we wanted to. It looked fun to do, it "wows" an audience, etc, etc, etc.

 

Sure there are people out there who will continue this dispute, but ya know what? Let that be their problem. We will continue to enjoy doing what we love. Isn't that what the art is?

 

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

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SOmething i thought of today ( rather ive always thought it but couldnt put it into words until now) is that when i spin poi i "flow through beats" but when i glowstick i " hit beats" if that makes sense

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